• Sonic - Petro-Gamers Webmaster
• Saracen - Petro-Gamers Co-Webmaster
• Foshjedi2004 - UAW Files
• Kelathin - Petrolution
• Elegy - GameReplays.org
• Banshee - Petrolution
• Duke - Petrolution
• Mastermind - Revora

Sonic: As I followed the development of Universe at War I was intrigued by the universe that Petroglyph were creating. A game offering a new story, three distinct factions and music from Frank Kelpacki. To me all the elements were in place for something big. Sadly it hasn't panned out that way. I never thought I would say it but Universe at War has bombed out big time. The game from a presentation stand point is very underwelming, it suffers from poor performance on high end systems, multiplayer is crippled by GFWL and there is the issue of how poorly the game was promoted and marked by SEGA. Patches have fixed many problems but its such a mission to get these patches released to whatever gamers are still out there waiting for them. I think its one and done for Universe at War, no franchise, no expansion pack or sequels.

Saracen: Bleak. I could sum it up with that for both instances. Single Player was poor, features were poorly fleshed out, and well, multiplayer has Live! which let's face it, is about as warmly received to PC gamers as the common cold. Then there's the poor excuse for a company called Sega. With the little or no marketing that went on and the huge wait that Europe and the rest of the world had to have to play the game, it's an extreme flop. I myself uninstalled the game 2 days after Patch 2 came out cos I hated the camera, the overly easy AI, and the rest of the package I mentioned above. I hated C&C 3, but even that stayed on my system from launch right upto where I clean installed Vista last month! But I'll be honest, in my opinion, Universe at War as a Franchise is dead. It starts and ends right here, right now, with the first game.

Foshjedi2004: In my opinion, Universe at War is a rich and varied Universe, however the game just feels a bit squashed. We know from talking with the developers that the game was originally only going to be the Hierarchy and Novus in the Initial Game and then Masari in the Expansion Pack. It may just be me but I think that like EAW, their previous AAA title, the publisher pressured PG into squashing too much into the game. Also the campaign feels too rushed compared to other recent RTS games.

Kelathin: I still have some hope for UaW franchise, but I really think it will come down to UaW modding. Modding provides longevity for games. Even the most popular competition Starcraft maps were made by modders. It seems only 1 of 3 things will ensure longevity and success for a game: Brandname, Multiplayer, and Modding. GTA IV is a perfect example of buggy poor framerate game(eh wait UaW 360 was the same way) but due to the title it got near perfect 10s across the board. Multiplayer, competitive multiplayer is also a candidate for success, Company of Heroes also fits the build. Finally modding, communities like Neverwinter Nights, Knights of the Old Republic exist primarily from modding and the constant. UaW really only has modding going for it. So hopefully the modding communities will get some serious work and help ensure UaW will last long enough to at least ensure an Expansion. I don't see much beyond an expansion if Sega doesn't advertise their game more. Poor advertising really kills the any chance of continuation of the franchise.

Elegy: I'll focus on the future of UAW rather than the game itself, although the two are heavily linked. I see the future of UAW as exceedingly grim. With the departure of Adam Isgreen and other members of Petroglyph, the original RTS tagteam is broken up and a lot of skill has been lost. That, coupled with the True Games announcement, makes any future for UAW a dark one indeed. UAW lacks a playerbase, it lacks marketing, and it lacks competition. And if mods are going to save this game (which certain people believe they are), then I ask them to point out how mods saved EAW from becoming a nearly dead place to visit online. Again, no playerbase to speak of, little to no marketing, scattered release dates, missing the European Christmas rush…the future is very grim.

Banshee: The game is fine. It provides some strategy depth with all research trees and diversity between factions, however, it seems that nobody, except for a small group of fans knows about the game. The lack of world wide advertisement from SEGA, the apparent complexity of the game for a novice RTS player, the usual population cap and LIVE For Windows seems to have killed its popularity. I have no clue if UAW will have an expansion, even if there were plans for at least one originally.

Duke: To be honest I stand by my initial statement of the game being sloppy. All along the game has had stacks of potential but due to one thing or another, things have just not quite worked out the way they possibly could have. The game is a great game, but in order to accurately state that you have to look beyond too many incriminating problems I think. Problems such as the buggy way the interface plays and responds to the gamer, problems such as the lack of quality multiplayer support because of live and ultimately the lack of quality marketing done to get the game the audience it probably should deserve. As far as the future of Universe at War as a franchise I seriously think they should write it off. The patches may have improved some things but really they should have been done before shipping. I don't see any future in the Universe at War series just because the first game in a series can't be a flop, that hardly dictates a standard for any others to follow. That said, I would be delighted if Petroglyph can go and prove me wrong!

Mastermind: Universe at War is a game that has a lot of potential, but I don't think it quite manages to deliver. I'm not too bothered by the online issues, but the campaign really bothered me. It just didn't deliver the experience I was expecting, for a variety of reasons. The biggest, most jarring thing for me was all of the deus ex machina appearances in the campaign. I spend 20 minutes clearing a map, and all of a sudden it's swarming with enemies again after a cutscene. Not fair, not nice. The story also never really drew me in, and not getting the full game experience (research) turned me off. I haven't gone back since the patch to check out the campaign, but I'm just not interested in it right now.

Sonic: The gaming industry moves fast and this nothing new. Developers come and go. I'm guessing Adam felt achieved all he could with Petroglyph and decided it was time for a new challenge somewhere else. We have no clue as where he taking is talents, fans have speculated that he is returning to EA and Command & Conquer, but that remains to be seen.

Saracen: Maybe, Maybe not. I think my above sentiments in question sum up why Adam parted company with Petroglyph. The potential vision, and hard work of his crashing like it did must have crushed his confidence. I'd imagine that a lot of the team felt like leaving for ventures new, but all the blame has to go on Sega! The support and sudden change in time-frame of development changed everything. I believe if Universe at War was to burst out on the scene now, with stronger content and single player, in a fresh year, and all the current changes in place with an enthusiastic Sega marketing campaign.... we'd probably be looking at "RTS of 2008". But who knows, if the Single Player was brilliant, and the Multiplayer was the focus of poor performance we'd probably be talking about Chris Rubyor instead, who knows!?

Foshjedi2004: I don't think so. You've got to realise that people don't stay with a single company all their careers. Sometimes people need to go and get a fresh perspective on things. Adam has done wonderful things in his time at Petroglyph and I personally wish him all the best in the future wherever he goes/ whatever he does next. Petroglyph still has a world class team there who are more than competent of making some kick ass games. Adam Isgreen != Petroglyph Games. While he was the creative director for UAW I think whoever steps up to fill the position will have some large shoes to fill. Good Luck to whoever that is!

Kelathin: Well, I would normally say when a couple of seniors leaves a company that it isn't a good sign, but during UaW production there were several key people hired like Dreissk-PG which meant before that Petroglyph was doing fairly well. I think Adam leaving was more of a personal falling out, then company failure. He already likely reached maximum pay within Petroglyph, he could just be wanting more money due to his age.

Elegy: Yes- bad things. UAW has enough problems without losing its top designer- this most certainly does not bode well for UAW as a franchise or Petroglyph's direction as a gaming company.

Banshee: While I'm sure he was a very talented, creative and nice individual, I'm sure Petroglyph doesn't rely only on him to create great games.

Duke: That really depends on where Petroglyph is headed in the future but naturally, if things continue to not work out - the top professionals working at Petro will go. Adam leaving I think is a huge blow though - especially if they want to continue with RTS games in the future.

Mastermind: I really don't know what to think about this. It usually isn't a good sign when the creative director for a project leaves after the first game. I think it doesn't bode well for U@W as a franchise, but only time will tell.

Sonic: There is no written rule book that says Petroglyph have to stick to RTS games so branching out into other sorts of games is probably something that has been planned. I'm not a fan of MMO's so my interest in this is going to be rather low.

Saracen: I wish I had thoughts. But the Partnership doesn't really bring any excitement to the table. Games, vision, proper marketing... these are what people are truly interested in.... All the end consumer wants to see in terms of partnership is who the companies are, and what they plan to do. The rest is pure pointless psychobabble. Such press releases as the one's we've seen are to attract other companies to the table and pave opportunities for investors. Sure there's more to it than that from a business perspective, but for us gamers... so what!? As for Petroglyph saying goodbye to the RTS world right now in favour of an MMO? One title comes to mind... "Earth & Beyond" and we all know what happened to that... Micro transaction games.... Another title "War Rock".... As a few reviews of this game (and other Micro-transaction games in the past)... "When you combine this system with real-world money, it's hard to shake the feeling that you didn't buy a mediocre game as much as you invested in a shady pyramid scheme." Most fall into such a catergory... which is going to be a shame... But the games industry has become so bland (Thank god for GTA 4 eh people!) that all games are under fire from scrutiny these days... Petroglyph (as a company) have perhaps have one of the biggest mountains to climb in the whole industry.

Foshjedi2004: I'm actually quite intrigued into what the MMO world will mean for PG. We've all seen what WoW did for Blizzard and I can't wait to see details of P-03 start to surface. Especially how the Micro-Transaction system will work and the name. Hopefully they'll be able to shed the "at War" title and be able to get lots of hype for the game from MMOers.

Kelathin: After a few key former Westwood Employees left, I believe this was the first sign of perhaps a shift in the company's direction. Right now Petroglyph is trying to broaden their name and try to establish a niche for themselves. As long as they are getting profit, then I don't see anything wrong with going MMO. More money for Petroglyph means more money for future RTS right? I wouldn't be surprised to see a console FPS.

Elegy: It might make good market sense for Petroglyph, but with the departure of Isgreen and the loss of such talent in addition to their newfound focus on the MMO genre is going to cost them in the long run. Attempting to release an MMO in a market dominated by World of Warcraft and Guild Wars is a dangerous move to invest in, especially given how THQ's Warhammer MMO should be released sometime in '08/09, which is guaranteed to attract a great deal of Dawn of War players as well as table top Warhammer fans.

Banshee: I don't really know True Games at all, since it is a completely new publisher. And MMO is not a completely new experience for those who came from Westwood Studios. I think Petroglyph can bring up something interesting, but as we've seen with Universe At War, the success of the game will also depend on the publisher.

Duke: Risky! While it's not something i'd recommend they do for whatever reason they've chosen to go this way and I wish them all the best and hopefully Petroglyph may even make their "lucky break" here.

Mastermind: As far as I know, the deal with True Games doesn't signal an MMO, but a micro-transaction based game. Free to play games supported with Micro-transaction games seem to be a big new focus in the games industry. Battlefield Heroes is due out in the near future, and one of the first big micro-transaction titles. It will be interesting to see what Petroglyph does with this sort of game.

Sonic: Where do I begin. Rather than rant and rave here I'll simply state what this community suffers from. A total lack of community sites. And this is due to one thing, the official forums that have become the be all and end all one stop shop that have killed any potential for fledging fansites, like our very own Petro-Gamers, to grow and expanded and gain a share of the audience.

Saracen: Oh my! How many more shades of grey can I add to this discussion? You'd get a shorter answer from me by asking what are it's biggest achievements. But at that point my answer would probably end here..... But I mean, just go to the official forums and take a look for yourself. It's full of Hardcore Petro fans who are there for the conversation and the few XBox 360 players who are discussing the same things mentioned 2 months previous. And well, that is effectively the whole Petroglyph Community. There are still a few sites about including Petro-Gamers, but really we're all holding on hoping something comes along, and things pick up... Saves me typing a long winded essay.

Foshjedi2004: Lack of Mod tools for UAW, inactive/lazy webmasters so sites aren't kept up to date. Also there are a couple of problems that I can't quite describe but seem to stem from some of the attitudes of people. Bickering between people that have grown from the EAW community. Childish in nature but that affect a large proportion of the community, if not obviously, just in the way people subconsciously treat each other.

Kelathin: Personally, I think there is a fairly large chunk of isolationism between different sections. Looking at the community as a whole it feels like a piece of pie that's been cut up and served across the table, while it is one whole pie, it's still very remote. I think Driph should hold more community leader meetings and work with leaders on individual basis right now while there is time before the next big project starts.

Elegy: When we first looked at UAW, we saw a new IP fresh out of a proven company with heavy ties back to Westwood Studios. UAW seemed to be a promising enterprise- the RTS-oriented skills of Adam Isgreen coupled with both old and new talent, in addition to the musical genius of Frank Klepacki...everything seemed to bode well for Universe At War. However, we then started experiencing problems with the publishers and the community itself. Not only did Petrogylph not have a serious fan base (although Empire at War sold reasonably well, it did not come close to achieving the playerbase that it needed to), but SEGA deemed it either too expensive or futile to put an attempt on serious marketing. Lack of marketing coupled with lack of a playerbase crippled UAW out of the gate, and there is little anyone can do to fix that problem. If Empire at War had succeeded in creating a stable playerbase, the game could have done better. Unfortunately, it didn't.

At the moment, UAW is on a downwards slope. The latest online figures put the number of players online at around 33 at peak time. As a franchise, that most certainly does not bode well for the future. For the the second time, a Petroglyph RTS has failed to gain widespread notoriety. While both games were made exceptionally well, they both had their killing flaws- Empire at War never made it into even semi-competitive play and did not even have replays (!) until a patch enabled them in retail. Likewise, UAW failed in terms of competitive play and also failed to achieve critical acclaim. Lack of marketing, lack of player base, and, of course, the killing blow...Games for Windows LIVE.

GFWL was the worst decision that Petrogylph/SEGA made. Regardless of whatever business sense it made or what other options were available, going with GFWL was a deadly mistake- the poison of UAW. Aspects of GFWL like paying for automatch was the final nail in UAW's coffin. GFWL cost UAW dearly- it alienated PC gamers, who for years have been receiving these most basic features free of charge. That, the lack of a lobby, and a multitude of other GFWL mistakes essentially killed UAW before release. No RTS game is going to make headway into a market dominated by SC, WC3, and COH with such an idiotic thing as paying for automatch, especially when those other games have established playerbases, tournaments, activities, great mods, and a household name.

Then we have the community itself. My talks with community leaders reveals a powerful urge on their part to make modding the great saving factor of UAW. This, gentlemen, is a delusion- nothing more than an idle fantasy concocted by individuals that operate under false pretenses. They cite games like WC3 where DOTA (Defense of the Ancients) has more players than WC3 vanilla itself. They forget, however, that WC3 actually had a playerbase before DOTA was released. They cite games like Oblivion, where vanilla was riddled with bugs and missing features- mods like OOO (Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul) have thousands of downloads and are essentially sequels to Oblivion in many ways. They forget, however, that Oblivion actually had a playerbase before the mods came out. They cite games like SC. Again, they forget that SC actually had a playerbase. They cite games like Empire at War, saying it was a 'godsend' for modding. Perhaps it was, and what has modding done for EAW? However much we would care to lie to ourselves, UAW does not have a notable playerbase.

Mods complement, they do not create.

Banshee: What I see is no different from the communities from all non-Command & Conquer games Westwood Studios produced. A very small community that hardly makes up new things and keep the user interested in the franchises. C&C was a big hit that people had the pleasure to recommend to their friends and captivated people with the uber cool Kane, unlike almost all other franchises that were in the way of Westwood and Petroglyph, with exception for those who had communities previously made up from famous movies, such as Star Wars and Dune. Universe at War doesn't captivated users as the first C&C did. It has a regular campaign and innovations are mostly on the gameplay, although it is still a typical RTS game. The game engine is good and quite flexible, however, the lack of modding tools (some people have access to them, but they can't publish their generated material online yet) is still a strong limited for modders. And LIVE has killed the online multiplayer community. If you browse Gamereplays, you'll see very few replays compared to more popular games such as Kane's Wrath.

I might have sounded somewhat pessimistic on the previous paragraph, but any game community has potential to improve depending on the amount of effort placed by the marketing department of the game producer and publisher and the community sites itself. Also, a famous alternative to LIVE could give some additional life for multiplayer. Maybe people should advertise ClanWars and other alternatives for ranked games, rather than relying on paid "Gold" accounts. Also, the upcomming release of modding tools should give some light for modders.

Duke: This is a tricky one as there are many. I do think however that one of the key problems is that pretty much all activity is centred around the Petroglyph Forums which is not very supportive of standalone fansites and because it's an official board certain things can't really be said the same as somewhere else. I think that for the community to grow Petroglyph first needs to come up with a game that attracts people to become active members in the fan community. This would cause less apathy in community expansion and obviously create a bigger fanbase. Secondly I think the official forums need to be reworked to be more of a technical support board and the load should be spread about various community sites.

Mastermind: I really don't feel qualified to answer a question like this, I'm a behind the scenes guy, so it would be unfair for me to be trying to point out issues in a community that I'm not terribly familiar with.

Disclaimer: The views expressed by each individual in the Roundtable Discussion are their own, and do not reflect the official view of Petro-Gamers, unless otherwise stated.